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Author Topic: help - sound proof windows in canada  (Read 14946 times)

dan

  • Guest
help - sound proof windows in canada
« on: September 18, 2008, 11:42:03 PM »

hi everyone,
i found this website very helpful.  Unfortunately, i can not get a lot of stuff that was discussed on this forum very easily in canada (e.g., magnetite windows, milgard windows, sound-proof windows, etc.). 

I am looking for this stuff so any help finding them would be very helpful. 

On a seperate but related note; I have 3 old windows that I would like to replace completely as it faces heavy traffic.  The guy who wants to replace them for me is not sure of the STC value of the windows but the specs sound good:
1.  double pane 
2.  1/2" thick laminate window
3.  2" dead space in between, filled with argon
4.  vinyl frames
5.  casement window adjacent with a fixed window and adjacent with another casement window

do you think it would be safe to go with this design and achieve about a 40 STC?

thanks in advance!

johnbergstromslc

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2008, 02:49:44 AM »

Well, the vinyl frame will bring down the STC a bit, but a double-paned window with 1/2" laminated glass and a 2" airspace will definitely achieve a 40 STC - if it has good seals.  Since you've got casement windows, it's likely you'll have excellent seals.

dan

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2008, 04:15:14 PM »

thanks!  Do you suggest something other than vinyl?  what are you thoughts on fiberglass options?  Is it possible to achieve greater than STC +40 if I did any other upgrades such as sound proof windows or installing an exterior storm window? 

I am getting mixed reviews on this forum about the soundproof windows.  I think I can achieve about a 3" gap between the new window and the sound proof window.  what are your thoughts on that?

thanks again!

Mark Daveis

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2008, 10:58:29 PM »

3 inches is better than 2 which is a minimum.
You can get more than 40 stc but you need more mass and that means thicker glass.
We have aluminium framed windows with toughened glass which are fairly good.
You can use heavy drapes over the windows made of mlv type material a few layers thick to increase mass and heavy steel shutters on the outside which would gibe you a good increase of mass as well. :)

johnbergstromslc

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2008, 11:11:51 PM »

I consulted my reference materials and have some numbers for you. 

Transmission loss for a double paned window, 1/2 laminated glass each side:

Hz       2" airspace        4" airspace

100     34                    31
125     37                    39
160     33                    35
200     38                    39
315     42                    43
400     44                    46
500     48                    51
630     47                    52
800     46                    52
1000   45                    49
1250   42                    48
1600   46                    50
2000   51                    54
2500   55                    59
3150   59                    61
4000   61                    63

STC    46                    50

As I said, a vinyl frame will bring down the STC a bit, so go with fiberglass if possible.  If not, don't worry too much about it.  Even if the installed window rates an STC of 43-44, that will probably be good enough.

joel

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2008, 10:11:57 PM »

Great reply, John.  We love it when you post the test results for assemblies like that over the full range of frequencies.  Thank you.

7zark7

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2009, 05:11:06 PM »

Hi,

Is there anyone who knows who in Canada could build the type of window described by 'd'?  i.e. two panes of 1/2" laminated glass and 2" air space?

Thanks.

johnbergstromslc

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2009, 05:43:32 PM »

Hi,

Is there anyone who knows who in Canada could build the type of window described by 'd'?  i.e. two panes of 1/2" laminated glass and 2" air space?

Thanks.


Well, it's gonna be a custom job, so any decent carpenter can build you one.  It might be a good idea to use cellular PVC instead of wood and be sure to get some sort of dessicant (i.e. silica gel) inside the cavity, as well as some good sealing.  If possible, make the inside pane removable, for cleaning & maintenance.

You'll probably have to forget about operability - a double-paned window unit with 1/2" glass will weigh about 16 lbs/sq.ft.  I doubt there's any kind of counterweight system or hinges that would handle that kind of load.

johnbergstromslc

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2009, 05:44:30 PM »


Well, it's gonna be a custom job, so any decent carpenter can build you one.  It might be a good idea to use cellular PVC instead of wood and be sure to get some sort of dessicant (i.e. silica gel) inside the cavity to prevent condensation, as well as some good sealing.  If possible, make the inside pane removable, for cleaning & maintenance.

You'll probably have to forget about operability - a double-paned window unit with 1/2" glass will weigh about 16 lbs/sq.ft.  I doubt there's any kind of counterweight system or hinges that would handle that kind of load.

7zark7

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2009, 06:44:16 PM »

I have vinyl windows in my house so I would like to stay with something that looks similar.  So I don't think a carpenter can build it.  I also need the space between to be sealed and maybe even argon/krypton filled for insulation (it gets bloody cold here)

Operability is not a problem, they can all be fixed. 

The dessicant is a good point, do windows like Milgard Quietline have a 'sealed' unit between the two panes of glass that are 2" apart?  It's hard to tell from their technical drawing.  It looks like the two panes facing outwards are a standard sealed unit.  But is the large 2" gap also sealed?  If not, how do they deal with condensation?

No matter who I talk to, no one can make a sealed unit wider than 1 3/8" locally...based on all the people I have found. 

So how good would a 6mm lami glass, 23mm gap filled with a heavy gas and a 6mm lami glass do in terms of sound abatement (1 3/8" thickness total)?

 


Well, it's gonna be a custom job, so any decent carpenter can build you one.  It might be a good idea to use cellular PVC instead of wood and be sure to get some sort of dessicant (i.e. silica gel) inside the cavity, as well as some good sealing.  If possible, make the inside pane removable, for cleaning & maintenance.

You'll probably have to forget about operability - a double-paned window unit with 1/2" glass will weigh about 16 lbs/sq.ft.  I doubt there's any kind of counterweight system or hinges that would handle that kind of load.

johnbergstromslc

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2009, 05:25:50 PM »

I think you'll have real trouble finding a window manufacturer that would produce an IGU (insulated glazing unit) 2" thick with 1/2" glass.  There's just no market for it, no profit in it for them to make them that thick.  As I said, that would be a custom job for a carpenter, fitting the glass and trimming out the sash to look like your existing windows.  And no argon/krypton filler either.

You'd still get good sound insulation with 6 mm lami glass and a 23 mm gap.  I don't have my reference material with me, but I can get you a close estimate of STC if you give me a day or two.  My guess would be somewhere in the low-40's, probably about the same as your walls.  A 23 mm gap would actually give better thermal performance than 50mm...

7zark7

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2009, 09:10:43 PM »

It would be much appreciated if you could get an estimate of the STC.  This would be representative of the best that's available in Eastern Canada save for a custom job. i.e. 1 3/8" sealed unit, with heavy gas with 6mm lami glass.  In fact I was given the option to go staggered as well if it helped i.e. 4mm lami on the front and 6mm lami on the back.

The windows would all be fixed and likely use a hard but non-metallic spacer between the panes.

The thermal performance is also important in my area as it gets quite hot in the summer and extremely cold in the winter.

Thanks!

johnbergstromslc

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2009, 05:53:06 PM »

It would be much appreciated if you could get an estimate of the STC.  This would be representative of the best that's available in Eastern Canada save for a custom job. i.e. 1 3/8" sealed unit, with heavy gas with 6mm lami glass.  In fact I was given the option to go staggered as well if it helped i.e. 4mm lami on the front and 6mm lami on the back.

The windows would all be fixed and likely use a hard but non-metallic spacer between the panes.

The thermal performance is also important in my area as it gets quite hot in the summer and extremely cold in the winter.

Thanks!


Well, I couldn't find an exact specimen match to the windows you're considering, but I'll give you the 2 closest matches:


1/4" (6mm) laminated glass + 1/2" (13 mm) airspace + .20" (5 mm) glass rates an STC of 42.

1/4" laminated glass + 2" (50 mm) airspace + .20" glass rates an STC of 46.


These tests were for unsealed, operable window units, so a sealed, fixed unit would probably rate higher.  Having laminated glass on both panes will help, as will having a 'heavy' gas in the cavity.  It's a good idea to go with different thicknesses of glass (6mm & 5mm), as in the examples, to prevent any resonance effects. 

My best guess for your configuration is STC 45.

7zark7

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2009, 08:08:53 PM »

Thanks John.  That helps!

Sorry to be a pain in the ass, but just to understand the improvement, what do you think my current windows are at?

3mm clear glass, 12mm air, 3mm clear glass?

I got a quote for some upgraded windows and it'll be about $1000 each!  I have 6 total so it's just over $6000!  much more than I wanted to spend.  I wonder if I'd be better off getting a better IGU with thicker lami glass but same overall thickness and replace those and then have someone build me a very thick lami-glass secondary slider window (like the ones on soundproofwindows.com) with a 2" air gap to the main window.

What do you think?


johnbergstromslc

  • Guest
Re: help - sound proof windows in canada
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2009, 08:42:15 PM »

Your current windows rate STC 30, if your lucky.  A 15 point rise in STC will be very noticable.

Custom IGU's are pricey, alright.  The only way I could afford the modifications I made is due to a friend who works at a local window company who was able to make mine for material cost only.

To further save money, you might want to consider losing the laminated glass.  If you can get a large airspace and a thick glass on both layers (but especially the outside) you can get a high STC.  Laminated glass will only add a few points STC to a configuration like that, not enough to justify the expense.