Author Topic: Sleepless in my new condo  (Read 14181 times)

nycjane

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Sleepless in my new condo
« on: February 08, 2012, 04:28:41 AM »
Hi - I just bought a new condo which I love.  The noise however, I hate. 

The people above me are very heavy walkers and well into the night...they also have 2 kids who visit often and run and jump all over the place.  I tried talking to them, it did not go well. So I am looking for a solution that I can implement myself without them being involved.  The walls and ceiling are concrete so I cannot believe how much noise I hear from them.  No voices, just stomping and scraping things on the floor.  There are sprinklers on the walls a few inches below the ceiling (which is the popcorn thing)  if that makes a difference.

Do I have options?  What can I do to make things better if not eliminate the sound coming from their unit?

Thank you in advance!  Please help me be able to relax and enjoy my pretty new place. 

whatismisophonia

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 12:01:05 PM »
 At any rate, this post is ironic, since i just got finished writing something about Thomas Edison's poured concrete house idea for people of low income.  But anyway, here's my understanding, for what it's worth:

The issue with solid concrete is that it doesnt actually soundproof as well as one might think.  Heavy mass is only one principle of soundproofing.  Another big one is "de-coupling".  When something is coupled it's connected; decoupled = disconnected.  A masonry wall can have the same sound transmission class (STC) as a wood framed wall because, though the masonry wall has mass on its side, its very solid and not as decoupled as a wood framed wall which has stud bays that keep the two sides of the wall from touching everywhere; not to mention that the airgaps of the stud bays themselves, if air tight, greatly deminish the noise.  Sound travels very well through most any solid object, especially if we are talking about low frequency vibrations like walking, running, moving furnature, etc.  You need to add drywall to the ceiling and walls while prividing for as large and air gap between the drywall and concrete as you are willing to subtract from the interior space of the room.  The larger the airgap, the more noise you will remove. The reason it is most likely necessary to sheetrock the walls is because the structure seems to be solid, as youve described, and the vibrations can just travel down the walls into the room.  We could just use strips of wood (furring) to create the air gap, however this is not the best way to decouple.  To Be Continued...

whatismisophonia

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 12:39:40 PM »
The absolute best solution is to build 2x4 stud walls which are not connected to the outer concrete walls and then to build a ceiling over those stud walls, with the ceiling framing members not touching the concrete ceiling above that either.  This is refered to as a room within a room. However, if you want to preserve more space in the interior of the condo in lou of having more airgap behind the drywall, then I would sacrifice the walls first, of course, but then still proceed to build a new ceiling, even if the ceiling joists (framing members) are having to be attached to the concrete walls; this would still be better than a dropdown ceiling. beyond that, make sure that everything is sealed up air tight all over, and the corners of the room (after being sheetrocked) are sealed with acoustic caulk, not mud and tape (acoustic caulk is usually paintable).  It would be better, though slightly more expensive, to use R1 resilient channel on the walls rather than wood furring strips, as they help to dampen vibration.  If you just cant stand the idea of dropping your ceiling down a little over 6 to 8 inches, then at least attach resilient channel to the concrete ceiling then attach drywall to that.  De-coupling is the big thing here.  Make sure any air gaps are filled with insullation, as it helps to keep down surface vibrations.  Not sure how to decouple your sprinklers, but then again, i dont actually work here  8) whistles and walks off...

Randy S

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 05:39:46 PM »
There is a method to give you adequate reduction of impact noise from above, This would be a retrofit system attached directly to the concrete ceiling system.
Now keep in mind you will still have some impact and footfall noise that will come out of the walls.

Install isolation clips and channel directly to concrete ceiling.
http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/Channel-_-Sound-Clips/products/15/

followed by R-8 cotton fiber between channel.

http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/Insulation/products/24/

Then you will apply 1/4" foam mat to the back of the first sheet of drywall.http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/Foam-Mat/products/17/

caulk perimeter and assess reduction, if you want to increase the system add a second layer of drywall with green glue.http://www.supersoundproofingsales.com/Green-Glue/products/34/

this system is not cheap but it is the only option with out having to build a room in a room or running new joist beams which would still need to be decoupled with clip and channel.
 
Never use resilient channel directly to concrete EVER!!!

sprinklers would need to be wrapped in pipe insulation and isolated from contacting the drywall as the penetrate the ceiling, caulking around gap of pipe.
Randy Sieg

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888-942-7723
Ph. 760-752-3030
Fax.760-752-3040

Randy S

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 05:41:49 PM »
Remember no such thing as 100% soundproof, our goal is to achieve at least a 50% perceived reduction of sound..
Impact sound is one of the hardest to reduce, keep in mind the vibration through the concrete is traveling 8x faster than airborne sound @ 10,600 fps.


Randy Sieg

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888-942-7723
Ph. 760-752-3030
Fax.760-752-3040

whatismisophonia

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 11:14:26 PM »
I need to clarify something here so i dont sound like too much of a complete deuche; I have heard of people using r1 channel spaced closer together on their ceilings, and being reasonably satisfied with that.  Also, i only ment that it would at least be better than furring strips, though if i were doing res channel, id definately do furring first and run the channel perpendicular for more decoupling.  Your system uses hat channel; i definately wouldnt attach that directly to the ceiling without clips.  But yeah, from what ive heard the hat channel and clip system is better than resilient channel, though more costly. 

Randy S

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2012, 12:50:09 AM »
ok first thing is that 85% of all RC-1 installations are shorted out..The concept behind using RC is to have a resilient ceiling, too many channel and your back to rigid. same with alternating the direction of the leg (shorting the system) as far as people being satisfied is because they really don't know what the true potential is in a system until you experience the difference of just RC-1 Vs. clips and channel or even pre dampened channel system, they are basically expressing that they have achieved a noticeable difference.

2) RC-1 can only handle 1 layer of 5/8" drywall, so no increasing mass and control...so now your automatically limited. RC-2 is for double layer drywall and is normally recommended for ceiling applications.

Keep in mind when we do sound control walls and ceiling we are trying to build mass so we want a strong weight capacity / 2.5 :1 safety factor 48 lbs. with clips and hat channel


 

Randy Sieg

Super Soundproofing Co
www.soundproofing.org
888-942-7723
Ph. 760-752-3030
Fax.760-752-3040

whatismisophonia

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 04:42:37 AM »

I know im always trying to reinvent stuff that works, im im still curious(curiosity may have killed the cat, but it also invented the gun that killed the cat)... In terms of ceilings, have you ever tried to use heavier gauge r1 channel and attached it to joists(every other joist), concrete, or furring by using thick rubber washers on either side of the channel to resemble the clip and channel system with reduced cost(and effectiveness)? Im gonna try to attach a pic here...

Randy S

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 04:53:37 AM »
go back to the drawing board my friend your system is already shorted in comparison to clip and channel your screw maintains the path or tuning fork..... ;)

and how are you going to control the shift of the drywall when loaded preventing the short at the perimeter? and no to foam cause over time the cells will collapse..caulk will squeeze out and bubble the edge. Styrofoam will also not work when there is a constant pull of weight due to the durometer....and heavier durometer material could short the system..

This is why there are options of decoupling based on cost and tolerance allowed.

sometimes trying to reinvent the wheel becomes over engineered, in which is smoke and mirrors..."To decouple or not to decouple"...it is that simple... either there is a path or there is not....

wrap your head around this one....  a single screw can generate a 200' circle of vibration = airborne sound.....

Randy Sieg

Super Soundproofing Co
www.soundproofing.org
888-942-7723
Ph. 760-752-3030
Fax.760-752-3040

Randy S

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 04:56:08 AM »
if it was sleeved it would have potential....if you over sized the hole for neoprene to act as the sleeve you would lose the safety factor to hang drywall.... catch 22.....safety first then soundproofing..nobody wants a ceiling dropping on them ;)
Randy Sieg

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888-942-7723
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Fax.760-752-3040

whatismisophonia

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2012, 04:47:44 AM »
well i figured it would at least be necessary to drill the hole wider so that metal didnt contact metal.  Yes, i know you guys have already thought of all kinds of ins and outs and stuff, but im kind of a compulsive thinker. I had thought about the drywall pushing against one side, and i understand that if one were to have half of the res channel going the opposite direction to compensate, flexibility would suffer, not to mention stability, as the weight of the ceiling would try to either pull itself apart or push itself together, cracking the joints or creating a bulge. What about a thin oblong tube that would flex on both sides? Drawin another picture... took longer than i though.  Perhaps i could invent a fabric which contains a dimensional rift in space-time through which no vibrations could travel; and i could have a wormhole installed that takes me sraight to the liquor store for mountain dew and everclear... this will never be solved.

whatismisophonia

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2012, 04:53:22 AM »
...forgot to attach the pic

whatismisophonia

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2012, 10:10:48 AM »
Disregard the other pic; this modification is even mo betterer.  On par with clip and channel, i swear to god(maybe not or whatever).  Was up all night against my better judment.  Any one know a better way to pass out besides beer or pills?  I've even tryed working out, and that didnt work out.

Randy S

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Re: Sleepless in my new condo
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2012, 04:22:56 PM »
I can absolutely relate with what your saying, I eat,breath and sleep sound control...and sometimes lose sleep..
Trust me when I say I spend a good portion of my day doing exactly what you are doing, thinking of ways to make the systems better based on the hundreds of difference issues we deal with weekly.
What I find to be the real challenge is not trying to redesign something that is already proven to work, that is to be able to incorporate multiple principles into one material that actually has stand alone performance. Not being limited by the assembly in which it is used.
Randy Sieg

Super Soundproofing Co
www.soundproofing.org
888-942-7723
Ph. 760-752-3030
Fax.760-752-3040