Author Topic: Tripple Leaf Trouble  (Read 6349 times)

whatismisophonia

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Tripple Leaf Trouble
« on: December 20, 2012, 10:33:47 AM »
Well, anyway... I've now built a double stud wall against traffic, a double door setup against the living room dogs, decoupled floor joists, and am now working on a double wall against the wall that has the living room tv with the deep ass bass thumping against it.  This wall was originally an exterior wall before my room was added on; rather than redoing the wall, my dad had originally just screwed some sheetrock over the siding.  As such, one leaf of this wall is drywall, and the other leaf is osb, wood siding, and finally sheetrock.  The wall is also insulated, though it's only a 2x4 stud wall, but because there is still deep bass managing to thump through it, I want to build a second stud wall and add 5/8ths type-x.  However, expecially since I'm dealing soley with deep bass, a tripple leaf is obviously something that I'm wanting to avoid.  However, ripping down all that matterial and getting rid of it would be a very large pain in the ass.  So I guess my question is, if I took a large hole saw to several spots in the wall over each stud bay, would that open the wall up enough to negate the tripple leaf, or is this one of those things where the less and less solid material you have in the middle of the cavity, the less severe the tripple leaf becomes untill it's eventually non-existant?   

Randy S

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 04:17:41 PM »
So I guess my question is, if I took a large hole saw to several spots in the wall over each stud bay, would that open the wall up enough to negate the tripple leaf, or is this one of those things where the less and less solid material you have in the middle of the cavity, the less severe the tripple leaf becomes untill it's eventually non-existant?   
This is correct,  the more rigid material to take away from the triple leaf the less effect it will have.
We even have a statement on our website about taking a sledge hammer to the wall and making large holes in the drywall. Now, I really dont like that because if your going through the trouble already you might as well just do it right.

Thanks for Keeping us posted on your results!
 
Randy Sieg

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johnbergstromslc

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2012, 12:07:05 AM »
However, ripping down all that matterial and getting rid of it would be a very large pain in the ass.  So I guess my question is, if I took a large hole saw to several spots in the wall over each stud bay, would that open the wall up enough to negate the tripple leaf, or is this one of those things where the less and less solid material you have in the middle of the cavity, the less severe the tripple leaf becomes untill it's eventually non-existant?

Dude, demo is EASY compared to drilling with a hole saw through 1.5-2 inches of material.  (Don't forget about the time it's going to take to 'clear' the hole saw - getting all that stuck crap out is the real time-waster.)

It's also a great way to work off stress...

Why bother with a double wall???  Rip off all the old crap and convert the wall into staggered studs, sealed well, extra insulation if need be, with 3 layers of drywall on the new side.  You'll save floor space and get similar performance to a basic double stud wall.  And you won't have to worry about fire code issues created by a double stud wall. 

Another advantage of demo-ing the wall is you can add additional outlets/switches.

whatismisophonia

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 10:33:02 AM »
I've forgotten the answer to this and haven't had much luck trying to find it for some reason:  While we're on the subject of double walls, is it necessary or even beneficial to caulk or otherwise fill the gap between the opposing double door and window frames?  Seems like it wouldn't matter much either way, though bridging the walls in anyway creates a coupling effect... 

My doors (while closed) have about 14 inches of air space between them, and I was just going to cover the perimeter gaps between the two door frames with a grey felt fabric so as not to couple the walls.  Acceptable?

To johnbergstromslc:  1:  I've worked as a laborer doing renuvation work on old houses in the past.  I know that demo is the quickest part of the whole thing; it's just that it makes such a damned mass and I have to dispose of it all, and I don't have a dumpster handy.  I was hoping I could just get away with creating enough air flow though the middle so that it would behave as a double leaf.  2:  Wasn't it you you said "the airgap kills the sound"?  Also, I'd perfer to just minus off a few more inches of floor space and not have to go through the expense and effort of insalling 3 layers of 5/8ths firegrade gypsum.  There is also the fact that if it turns out that I still need more sheetrock, I can always add more after assuring a good sized airgap.

johnbergstromslc

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 06:32:08 PM »
You don't have a 'dumpster handy'?  How big is this wall???

Don't need a dumpster - just make a controlled pile, and throw away a couple garbage bags worth at a time each week til it's gone...

A don't have a degree in acoustics, but I would hazard a guess that you'd have to remove 50% of the wall surface, with fairly uniform spacing of holes to satisfactorily eliminate the triple-leaf effect.

Calculate how many holes that will be, based on the area of the hole saw, and time how long it takes you to drill one hole and clean out all the OSB/siding from the hole saw.  Then do the math.  I think you will see drilling holes is a poor way to go....

Also, not opening up the wall when you have an opportunity to do so is foolish.  I can guarantee you will find 'remediation' that needs to be done so that you wind up with an effective soundwall.  Gaps, seams, penetrations that need to be sealed, insulation that has probably sagged an needs to be restapled.

As for the 'expense and effort' of installing 3 layers of drywall, well, you're going to be installing 2 layers, regardless whether it's a double wall or staggered stud, so what's one more layer???

Yeah, for a small job like yours, demo is the way to go.  You're taking too much of a chance getting poor results otherwise.  Ignore advice at your own risk....

whatismisophonia

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 03:40:04 AM »
It's not a big wall, its just more than enough material for a half a roll of trash bags.  If I could get away with not having to do that, I would prefer to.

As far as noise is concerned, I only have some deep bass to deal with.  And it's really not even loud, it's just that any noise bothers me.  Even though it were to create a tripple leaf, adding a second wall over the original may just be enough db reduction to eliminate the sound; it's just that I don't like having to redo things if it doesn't work.  Just the same though, tearing out the wall will be annoying, and I might be able to get away with not doing it at all.

Also, I never said that I was adding two layers of drywall.  I would just start with one, see how effective it is, and add more if needed.

Randy S

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2012, 04:05:29 PM »
oh just go for it, if it doesn't work you can always start over. :)
Randy Sieg

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888-942-7723
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whatismisophonia

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2012, 07:34:04 PM »
Something else occured to me:  Concerning another wall, if I've ripped out a the sheetrock on an exterior wall and left the original insulation where it was, and just proceeded in building a second stud wall, will the tar imbedded craft paper vaporbarrier act as third leaf?

johnbergstromslc

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2012, 10:27:41 PM »
Seems like you had already planned this whole thing out and you don't seem inclined to take advice from people vastly more experienced (i.e. wiser) than you, so why are you here?  Why bother with the charade?

I've tried to talk you out of some really dumb ideas in the past, but you're too stubborn to consider that you're wrong....  And here we are again.

Do whatever you want, good luck with your likely crap results, etc., etc., etc...




whatismisophonia

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2012, 08:04:09 PM »
I apologize for my previous comment; regarless of my thoughts on a subject, allowing myself to loose perspective with aggression is and always shall be incorrect.  Continuous conversation is the best to find commonality; when the convo ends, so does the connection.  That said, I do feel that you're being a tad hypocritical.  And though experience may back you up, it doesn't allow you to blow off attempting to understand other's points of view.  I asked the orgininal question because I don't entirely understand the dynamics of how sound moves through a cavity.  Based on Randys answer, I then seriously reconsidered tearing out the wall.  Your comment after that made me even more uncertain, not because you recommended tearing out the wall (I knew you would),  but because there are things that would certainly need "remediation", seeing as how the main circuit box for the house is in this wall.  That said, it's also true that I could somewhat easily take down the new wall it if it didn't cut it.  It's a difficult decision to make, as I'm trying to reduce the stress of it all.  At any rate, understand that I didn't come here with my mind made up.   

johnbergstromslc

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012, 04:55:23 PM »
All you ever seem to want to do is criticize and hypocritically seem to be way to stubborn about your own way of viewing things.  This is the way EVERY single one of your comments have been:  If people don't agree with you, they're wrong.  Period.

Not at all.  I'm just experienced enough to know what is a waste of time, and what won't turn out well, relative to people's expectations and investment in time/money.  Most people come to this site seeking advice how to efficiently fix their noise problems, the FIRST TIME.  That doesn't mean trial and error i.e., drilling holes hoping for the best then having to do it all over when one is unsatisfied with the results...

I decided long ago I was not going to recommend band-aid solutions and I aint changin' now...


whatismisophonia

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Re: Tripple Leaf Trouble
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2012, 04:59:54 AM »
You'll just have to excuse the fact that I like to experiment.  It doesn't make me stupid; my learning disability does.  Also, if it makes you feel any better, I've decided to tear out the wall.  I'll only need to throw away the old drywall, as I can remove the nails from the siding and sheathing, take them off in panels, reattach them to the outside of the new studs, then drywall it.  Fin.  Comments, concerns?  Also, marry Christmas; hopefully it doesn't suck too much.  Eggnog helps.  Half and half with wild turkey.  MANnog.

 

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